00:00:00: Introduction
00:06:20: The whens
00:12:19: The hows, and concepts for “sure” actions …
00:12:51: … 1: take into consideration a “sure, if”
00:15:38: … 2: contemplate “sure, as a result of”
00:18:39: Concepts for “no” actions
00:19:03: … 1: quick filter
00:23:10: … 2: supply another
00:25:40: … 3: current your priorities with pleasure
00:28:35: Concepts for “do not know” actions
00:29:44: … 1: use your do not is aware of to ask for assist
00:33:19: … 2: reframe from figuring out to studying
00:34:42: … 3: transfer from do not know to knowns
00:40:02: Remaining ideas
Sarah Ellis: Hello, I am Sarah.
Helen Tupper: And I am Helen.
Sarah Ellis: And that is the Squiggly Careers podcast. Each week, we speak about a unique matter to do with work, and share some concepts and instruments that we simply hope will assist you to to navigate this Squiggly Profession that all of us have with a bit extra readability and management.
Helen Tupper: And if you’re a primary time listener, welcome. You won’t find out about among the different assets that we create to go together with the episode. So, each one in all our episodes comes with a PodSheet; that is only a one-page abstract that can assist you be taught, replicate and take motion. We even have one thing referred to as PodMail, which is an electronic mail that comes out each Tuesday. It simply places all of the hyperlinks to all of the issues that we speak about in a single place for you.
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Sarah Ellis: This week, we’re speaking about saying sure, no and do not know. So, why do we predict that is necessary? Why do we predict this can be a matter? Properly while you say, “Sure”, you stretch your expertise, uncover new expertise and infrequently uncover potential.
So, there’s plenty of causes for saying sure to issues. Once you say, “No”, it lets you make progress on priorities, so issues which might be most necessary to you, and it stops you I believe from getting pulled in plenty of totally different instructions. And once we say we “Do not know”, it provides us time to assume. I additionally imagine it builds our confidence that you just need not know all the things to be good at your job. And I believe we practise, once we say, “I do not know”, being weak, and really typically that builds belief between individuals. There’s an attention-grabbing article I learn just lately the place they stated, “I’d a lot fairly have a supervisor who says, ‘I do not know’, than a supervisor who tries to pretend it or feels underneath stress”, you understand, to bluff or to make one thing up, which I believe would possibly really feel counterintuitive generally. Possibly as a supervisor you assume, “Oh, I ought to know the reply to that, so I’ve obtained to say one thing”. However truly, individuals would like you to truly say, “Oh, I do not know”, or, “I’ve not thought of that”. So, Helen, out of these three, saying sure, no, and do not know, I believe they’re all type of linked however distinct expertise, the flexibility to say these three various things, which one do you discover best and which do you discover hardest?
Helen Tupper: So, I am having a bit personal giggle to myself, as a result of Sarah has achieved the preparation for at the moment’s podcast off the again of a dialog we had final week, and he or she’s already written some assumptions concerning the one which she thinks that I’d discover hardest to do!
Sarah Ellis: I used to be making an attempt to be useful!
Helen Tupper: I do know, nevertheless it simply made me chortle as a result of like, yeah, she’s completely proper. You recognize when somebody simply is aware of you actually, rather well! So, I am going to begin with the one which I discovered hardest, as a result of we each comprehend it clearly, which is the saying no to issues. I type of have this want to do all the things and it appears like a waste of time if I do not, and so I actually wrestle to say no. I do not need to miss out on issues or not be a part of issues, so yeah, I wrestle.
It is not my computerized response to say no and I discover it fairly arduous to do. I believe I am all proper. I imply, I believe the sure and the do not know, I am fairly good at each. I undoubtedly say sure to a whole lot of issues, however I believe I am additionally okay with the saying that I do not know. I believe I haven’t got a confidence gremlin about admitting that I’ve obtained a data hole. It is simply not one thing that type of goes in my head. I undoubtedly see it when it impacts different individuals, however that is not one thing I believe will get in my approach. To be trustworthy, my incapacity to say no is so massive, it is so massive that I believe that is the factor for me to concentrate on! What about you?
Sarah Ellis: Clearly, the other to you.
Helen Tupper: Clearly, as all the time!
Sarah Ellis: I believe our common listeners will know. So, I discover it hardest to say sure, notably to issues that scare me or really feel like I’d be doing one thing a bit totally different. I believe I’m good at making excuses about why not, like why should not I’m going and try this factor; why should not I say sure? And possibly since you’re good on the different one, as a result of I’ve obtained plenty of observe and I am good at being clear on when to say no and prioritising, you understand your ability in a single space can type of be unhelpful in one other? And I believe we have simply principally described that just about by being most likely excellent at one in all these, then it type of will get in your approach possibly it being pretty much as good on the different. So, that is undoubtedly true for me.
A bit such as you, I am not apprehensive about saying I do not know. I believe a few of which may have additionally come from earlier in my profession, I spent most of my time as a generalist. So, I had plenty of observe transferring in numerous departments and dealing in very differing types of groups.
So, I used to be by no means essentially the most professional particular person. And virtually by the point I then moved from being extra of a generalist to a specialist, which is how I type of see myself now, most likely greater than I ever have earlier than, as I’ve a deeper stage of data about most likely fewer issues, even now I do not ever put stress on myself to really feel like, “Oh, nicely I ought to know all the things about profession growth”. I am type of fortunate that that is come at some extent the place you are feeling fairly assured in your self and your profession. So, I do not know whether or not there is a generalist/specialist hyperlink right here to the arrogance to say I do not know, nevertheless it actually type of struck a chord with me serious about it that approach.
Helen Tupper: I undoubtedly have had occasions in my profession when the do not know factor has most likely been greater. I used to be simply making an attempt to consider sure firms that I labored in the place the context was very professional, you understand, like individuals had what I’d name very arduous skilled expertise.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that is true.
Helen Tupper: So, at Capital One, individuals have been statisticians and numbers was the arduous, skilled ability that individuals valued; or like at BP, a whole lot of these individuals have been engineers who’d labored within the organisation for a very long time. So, maybe after I was an outlier in an organisation that had a really arduous ability set, I believe possibly my do not know felt a bit extra exposing. So, I simply don’t desire individuals to assume, “Oh, no, I’ve obtained that one and people two do not”. I believe Sarah and I’ve, I assume, the privilege now of working with one another, we have identified one another for a really very long time and we attempt to practise this usually to create a secure area for the do not is aware of to occur. However I do not assume I’ve all the time labored in that setting.
Sarah Ellis: So, earlier than we get onto the hows, let’s simply pause on the whens. So, when would possibly you need to say sure, no, or do not know? So, while you need to improve your variety of yesses, I believe is when you’re feeling caught, for those who’re stalling, or possibly particularly for those who’re on a little bit of an on-repeat sample. So, I learn a extremely good quote final week that stated, “Familiarity breeds complacency”.
Helen Tupper: Oh, that quote is so brutal!
Sarah Ellis: Harsh however honest. It’s actually brutal. However you understand that sense of, when was the final time I did one thing for the primary time? What am I studying now that is new to me? All of us do want, I believe, on the proper moments, doses of sure in order that we are able to each do issues in another way, so we do not get caught, but in addition we do not need to restrict our studying to the place we’re at the moment. So, not solely can it type of transfer us out of that consolation or the consolation zone, if you wish to give it some thought in that approach. I do assume you then put your self in new conditions the place out of the blue you would possibly see that you have expertise and strengths that you just simply did not recognize. That is extra about exploring your potential, I believe.
Helen Tupper: Asking your self that query, “The place does familiarity result in complacency in my profession?” I believe it creates some actually attention-grabbing insights for individuals. I’d replicate on it afterwards.
Sarah Ellis: After which when to say no. I think this one, everybody will recognise, as a result of even when like me, you are okay with saying no, all of us really feel overwhelmed. All of us have these moments of being busy, simply being busy. I typically replicate on, I do know that is taking place to me after I get to the top of per week and I really feel depleted however I can not let you know what I’ve achieved, and I am all the time like, that does not really feel like a great place to be. And likewise, serious about it extra positively, for those who’ve obtained one thing that is actually necessary that you just need to progress, so you have obtained a objective or an goal, maybe you are engaged on a venture or a milestone that you actually need to make occur, type of actually recognizing these moments the place saying no turns into much more necessary. So, if saying sure is much more necessary, maybe for those who do need to actually type of stretch your self otherwise you’re feeling caught, saying no is much more necessary. When you’re like, “I actually need to make this factor occur, it is actually necessary to me, it is necessary to my profession, necessary to my organisation”, that is the second the place like, if there’s any second the place it’s good to begin practising saying no, I believe it is then.
Helen Tupper: My indicators for saying no are after I begin saying sorry an excessive amount of, “I am sorry, I can not make it, I am sorry”, like simply after I’m on sorry overload, I am like, “That is since you’re not with the ability to do all the things you need to”. Or after I’ve obtained too many items of paper that I am carrying round with me, as a result of most of my items of paper are about lists. I have a look at my desk now and I can see a whole lot of items of paper that I’ve obtained. There is a to-do record and a few concepts, there’s simply a whole lot of lists. And I do know that if I simply must maintain carrying an ever-growing stack of paper round with me, it is as a result of I am not finishing issues that I’ve began, as a result of I have never stated no to sufficient. So, they’re my little very sensible, tangible indicators.
Sarah Ellis: You are simply including. It feels prefer it’s very additive. And when to say you do not know. So, I believe there’s a very primary one right here, which I do not know whether or not everybody will agree with truly, as a result of I am certain you possibly can discover some proof that generally it’s okay possibly to pretend it till you make it. However when you do not know, I do assume it’s higher to say you do not know than to try to make one thing up.
I believe generally individuals would possibly really feel stress to must give you a solution, however I believe that is a extremely arduous factor to do. The opposite factor I used to be serious about this, I used to be reflecting on when else would you say you do not know, in these moments when you could have a niggle that one thing is not proper or one thing is not fairly clicking and you do not know why but? We’re all very used to that, “Do not share issues, share options”. However generally I believe you’re simply in that second considering, “I do not know why this isn’t working, however I do really feel prefer it is not working”. And I do assume it’s okay generally to sign that to say, “I am feeling a bit unsure about this. I am undecided but what to do or precisely what the reply is, however I do need to discover it a bit extra, I do need to give it some thought a bit extra”. Usually, these are moments the place you need to assume a bit extra deeply otherwise you need to type of pause, even when it is simply momentarily, as an alternative of giving your self that probability to consider one thing a bit extra deeply.
Helen Tupper: Having stated I’m good at this, I am now difficult myself. I used to be serious about, I did a podcast the opposite week. We have been on — I used to be on someone else’s podcast and so they requested me —
Sarah Ellis: Outrageous! There are different podcasts?
Helen Tupper: Oh, did I not let you know I am auditioning with someone else for the Wiggly Careers podcast?
Sarah Ellis: Oh my God, think about if that occurred!
Helen Tupper: No, no.
Sarah Ellis: Some individuals truly name it Wiggly Careers. I am like, I imply are you able to not?
Helen Tupper: Wiggly Careers; somebody as soon as stated to me, Wobbly Jobs, and I used to be like, let’s simply keep on with Squiggly, everybody! No, however I used to be on this podcast and so they have been asking me a query. The primary one I used to be like, “I am undecided”. The questions that they have been asking me, I am undecided that I had sensible solutions for, and I believe most likely what I ought to have stated, I do not know, I most likely ought to have simply referred to as it within the dialog and stated, “Oh, truly, I do not assume I’ve obtained sufficient experience in that space to offer your listeners a extremely good reply to that, so we could transfer on?” I ought to have stated that, however are you aware what, I did not.
I believe I attempted to reply it within the stream of the dialog, and I’ve type of mirrored on it afterwards and thought, “I do not assume what I stated was that clear or compelling or helpful, so then why say it?” However what I did not say, and what we’re advocating for, is I ought to have stated among the issues that we will come on to within the concepts for motion in a minute. However I believe generally the stress of a scenario, that was a podcast dialog, nevertheless it might have been a presentation, you understand, when somebody asks you a query; generally that type of stress of a scenario can generally make you simply have an effect on your potential to say the yesses, the nos and the do not is aware of. So, I get it. If anybody else is listening going, “Sure, that is what occurs to me”, I get it as a result of it did occur to me as nicely the opposite week.
Sarah Ellis: So, we’re not going to enter the how. We will begin with sure, then we will speak about no, then we will speak about do not know. And within the spirit of practising, we’re going to lead on the one which we’re not pretty much as good at. So, I’ll speak about some concepts for motion on saying sure, after which Helen can coach me via it. If I miss something, Helen’s then going to speak about how she’s going to say no extra typically —
Helen Tupper: That was directed!
Sarah Ellis: — and I’ll get pleasure from that second. After which collectively, we are going to hopefully assist with how one can say I do not know. So, concept for motion one on sure is consider a “sure, if”. So, this lets you give a considerate sure that units you up for fulfillment. And so, generally I believe we do not say sure as a result of we aren’t certain how we will make it occur or we get nervous concerning the sensible realities of the sure. It jogs my memory of when Helen was talking to Cal Newport the opposite week for the Ask the Knowledgeable episode, he talks about primarily each sure does have an administrative burden that comes with it; there’s all the time quite a bit to do with each time you say sure. And so typically, I believe generally I ought to say sure to issues however I do get nervous about that. I am going to assume, “Oh, I am simply undecided”.
After which my default truly is to say no, although possibly I might have realized quite a bit from saying sure. So, “sure, if” will get you to simply assume via simply the type of implications of the sure to extend your confidence. So, we have got three sure ifs for you simply to deliver this to life. So, it could be sure, if there’s another person concerned, so that is type of a individuals sure. So, “Yeah, I might actually wish to become involved in that occasion, if I might work alongside with somebody from the staff or a unique staff”. So, it is a sure if there’s another person, which I believe is a great factor to do. The second sure is a time one, or a time and place one, so sure if there is a very clear timescale to one thing. So, “Actually pleased to volunteer for that venture, if we are able to assessment the way it’s working on the finish of August”. So, you are saying sure if the timescale could be very clear. Then the ultimate “sure, if” is one thing else stops. So, that is being very clear on priorities, which I believe most likely pertains to each this and once we speak about nos. However this one would possibly sound like, “Yeah, I might be actually pleased to become involved in that piece of labor, if I can pause venture B within the meantime, we are able to come again to it”. So, I believe it’s a considerate sure, it is a thought-through sure, and I identical to this concept of going individuals, place, priorities. It is type of a “sure if”, and that simply lets you then I believe virtually be ok with saying the sure, as a result of I believe you are feeling such as you’re like, “I am saying sure in the correct approach for the correct causes, and likewise with the correct issues round me”. I discover that reassuring.
Helen Tupper: I prefer it. I truly assume whilst someone who likes saying sure, typically my sure comes from a spot of type of power and enthusiasm however not all the time effectiveness. So, I believe your “sure, if”, I believe it helps to make, yeah, only a extra type of efficient approach of opting into issues. I’d adapt it too.
Sarah Ellis: After which the second is the one that basically counts for me, as a result of I am truly okay at that first one. However the second, the explanation I do not say sure could be as a result of I’d be scared primarily. I’d assume, and Helen and I have been speaking about this final week, about how we generally do not do issues simply because we predict, “I simply can’t be bothered”. And really, it is a bit little bit of laziness and it is a bit little bit of, “It might be simpler to not”. So right here, we try to say sure while you most likely need to say no. So I used to be like, “Proper, okay, what helps me right here?” as a result of generally I do do that. And that is the place fairly than saying “sure, if”, concept for motion two is “sure, as a result of”. So right here, our job to do is to speak ourselves in to saying sure.
So, if you’re like me and also you’re naturally fairly crucial, I can give you all the explanations to say, “No, no thanks”, principally, fairly than, “Sure, as a result of, it is like, “No, no thanks for all of those excellent causes”. The factor that I do is I begin the opposite approach round. So, I type of begin from the opposites, from the upsides, “Do I need to go to that occasion?” I imply the reply to that, no matter what it’s, is just about all the time, “No, thanks.”
But when I give it some thought in another way, if I am like, “Sure, as a result of I get to satisfy individuals I’ve not met earlier than, or some new weak ties or some distant ties, and really it is a great way of bringing individuals collectively”; “Sure, as a result of truly I am within the content material of what is going on to be talked about at that occasion, so there’s type of a studying motivation for me”; and possibly it is simply because I can not keep in mind the final time I did one thing for the primary time. So out of the blue, I’m going, “Three yesses which might be nudging me in direction of type of the correct reply”. And I did it just lately truly, the place we had an award that we have been getting into, and once more, very easy to say no since you’re identical to, “I can not make the area within the week, not obtained a great deal of power for it”. Whereas, I then did the “sure, as a result of”, and I assumed, “Sure to getting into that award, since you all the time be taught from the method of getting into for awards”, I knew that from type of previous expertise; “Sure, as a result of for those who do win, it is an opportunity to share Squiggly with extra individuals”, so it is actually aligned to a objective that we have; and, “Sure, as a result of it is a chance to construct new relationships”. And I used to be like, it is type of that tipping level, and that will get me over the road of claiming sure. And you do not have to do it on a regular basis, however for those who by no means say sure, you do miss out. So, there you go, that works for me.
Helen Tupper: I like them, and I can hear them. Simply figuring out you, I really feel like they’re very reasonable yesses. Again to the, “I simply say sure with power”, I really feel like truly there’s the thought-through, the considerate, and the thought-about nature of that’s, it’s totally type of including you into the sure, which I like. So, let’s transfer on to the nos, for anyone who already finds yesses very simple and would possibly must say no a bit bit extra. We’ve coated this as a subject truly on a podcast, nevertheless it was some time again. It was again in episode 106, and we’re nicely into episode 400 now.
So, we have got some new concepts about how one can say no. However for those who’re actually struggling, possibly hear again to that one too. So, three concepts. Concept primary is a quick filter. So, this offers you just a few inquiries to ask your self in an effort to be, I assume, clear and assured about what you would possibly must say no to. So, the primary bit is assessing the scenario that you just’re in.
So, one, “Do I perceive the ask?” So, what’s it, when does it should be achieved by, why does it should be achieved? Quantity two, “Do I imagine we must always do that?” So, not simply somebody’s wanting me to do it, however do I personally imagine that is the correct factor to do? And that hyperlinks to query quantity three, “Do I imagine I’m the correct particular person to do it?” Is it the correct factor? Am I the correct particular person? After which quantity 4, which is the one which I by no means actually ask myself, “Do I’ve time to make it occur?” I type of imagine in magic time, which does not truly exist. And I believe if I truly stated, “Do I’ve time to make this occur?” I’d be a bit extra reasonable about what I say sure and must say no to. So, these first 4 questions offer you a quick filter on whether or not that is one thing within the sure or the no class. Even when it does fall into the no class, as a result of possibly you are not the correct particular person or possibly you have not obtained the time to make it occur, it would not all the time must be an computerized no.
It could possibly be a, “Not now”, since you’ve obtained one thing else on; it could possibly be a, “Not except”, like “there is a staff of individuals that may work with me, or I do it with somebody who’s an professional within the areas I am not”; or it could be a not ever, truly, it could be a, “No, I do not ever assume this ought to be the correct factor”. I believe generally the not ever, whether or not you phrase it like that or not, as much as you, however I do generally assume you have to be clear when it is a no, notably if in your head it is a not ever, I believe it’s higher to be clear about that. So, I generally have fudged my nos and all that occurs, like, so a fudged no, I will be like, “Oh, sorry, a bit busy in the intervening time, however thanks for the ask”. And all that occurs is the ask comes again round in three months and you then’re like, “No, I am nonetheless a bit busy”. And it could have been so a lot better to say, “Oh, I do not assume I am the correct particular person to do that, however actually want you better of luck with it. I believe it is a terrific venture, however not one I will be concerned in”. That’s me saying not ever in a Helen type of approach and it is a lot better than doing the fudgy no.
Sarah Ellis: I agree and I believe that is the place I’ve undoubtedly fallen into that lure previously, since you assume it is kinder possibly to say, “Oh, you understand –” however I believe typically, I am so near with the ability to say no, after which I am, “However be happy to get again in contact”. And also you’re identical to, “No, do not get again in contact, not with precisely the identical masks, as a result of it is a no now and it’ll be a no once more”, and it is simply having that confidence, is not it, to know that it’s okay to say no. And I suppose I’ve obtained extra used to receiving these from different individuals, which I believe has helped me to get higher at them, notably serious about the podcast.
We ask individuals to return on the podcast who say no, or generally simply do not even reply. So, virtually you simply get a tiny bit extra resilient, but in addition I believe I’ve seen and noticed how individuals say no in a approach that I actually respect. And I believe that is helpful to recollect, that truly you’ll be able to say no and nonetheless be form. And if somebody is a good particular person, they may respect that no. Everyone will get that individuals must make decisions in how they spend their time. And I believe we additionally generally, I believe possibly your ego can get in the way in which a bit right here, since you generally assume, if somebody’s requested you one thing, that they’ve solely requested you; and more often than not, individuals haven’t solely requested you, otherwise you’re not the one particular person. So, somebody’s world will not be going to fall down if you cannot try this factor. And I believe that is additionally generally fairly helpful to recollect. I believe I’ve had examples of that, the place then I realise I’ve stated no to one thing after which they’ve most likely requested like 15 different individuals and you are like, “Oh, yeah, it is completely high-quality, it is completely high-quality to say no”.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I agree. You virtually really feel so responsible that you just get a bit like, “Oh, but when I say no, then what are they going to do?” They usually’re like, “In all probability ask another person”!
Sarah Ellis: Be high-quality.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, be high-quality.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, be completely high-quality.
Helen Tupper: Recover from your self!
Sarah Ellis: Get somebody higher!
Helen Tupper: Yeah, all that! Concept for motion two is to supply another, and I believe that is what I’ve been doing extra of late. So, I do wrestle with the flat out no, it would not fairly really feel like me, however then I do need to create readability that I can not be concerned or do one thing by a sure date or no matter. So, I discover the providing another fairly a helpful factor. So, for instance, “No, I can not try this assembly however I can ship you a voice word with my ideas”. I have been doing that quite a bit.
I get a whole lot of asks for conversations on LinkedIn. Lots of people message me, and a few individuals introduce me to different individuals with the ask, “Oh, Helen, this is Mick, thought you possibly can discuss to him about this”. And I am like, “No, I have never, I truly have not obtained the time to do that in the intervening time”, after which I really feel actually awkward. So, what I say as an alternative is, “No, I can not make the assembly, however I can ship you a voice word”. And I discover {that a} very fast approach that I will help that then would not type of have the identical impression in what I am making an attempt to do on different days. Or, “No, I can not work on that venture, however I can ship you some insights and hyperlinks which may assist whoever picks it up”. I can typically try this in a short time. Or, “No, I can not get that achieved by the top of the week, however I can ship you one thing I’ve created earlier than that you possibly can use as an alternative. So, these are — I discover myself doing that quite a bit. And so long as my various would not take a whole lot of time, I discover that that works for me. You recognize, if I am simply changing their ask with one thing that takes a bit extra time, that is not likely a win in me saying no. However I’ve been making an attempt to do these kinds of alternate options as fast as I can.
Sarah Ellis: Properly, what’s good about these examples is you are both saving time otherwise you’re being versatile along with your time. So, I used to be simply considering truly, while you described that first one, I’ve stated sure to a few conferences that I most likely, in hindsight, I have a look at them and assume, “Properly, I ought to have stated no”, however I stated sure as a result of, wish to your level, I needed to be useful. And I do all the time assume however individuals actually helped us and also you’re all the time making an attempt to do the identical.
But when I had simply stated, “Properly, fairly than a gathering, for those who ship me your questions, I’ll reply with a voice word”. That works approach higher for me by way of, we’re not going to collaborate calendars and discover diary time. Additionally, it signifies that in the event that they’re actually critical, they may ship you questions as a result of they’ve them. And if they are not, then in the event that they’re simply type of getting into into the dialog as a result of they could as nicely, once more that is most likely not going to be that helpful for you or for them. Once more, although I’d say I am naturally okay at saying no, already I can spot, I am like, “Oh, however I could possibly be even higher”. And it is now making me assume I actually remorse saying sure to these issues!
Helen Tupper: Dammit! And the third concept for motion with the nos, and once more I am discovering this one simple in the intervening time, so I really feel like I’m engaged on this, is to current your priorities however with pleasure. So, they are not like this, I do not know, this factor that has no emotion connected to them. So, for instance I’ve needed to say no to a couple issues in the intervening time as a result of Sarah and I are engaged on writing our third guide, which I do not assume we’re purported to be speaking about but, however I’ll.
Sarah Ellis: However it’s coming.
Helen Tupper: However it’s coming and we’re engaged on it. And so, a few individuals have requested me to be concerned in sure issues and I’ve needed to say no as a result of we’re defending a lot time to jot down the guide. And I am actually proud that we’re writing that and I am actually enthusiastic about what we’re creating, and after I say, “I am actually sorry I can not make that assembly, or become involved in that venture in the intervening time, as a result of we’re writing our guide and we need to make progress on it and we’re working in direction of this date, and it is one thing that we’re actually wanting ahead to”, I simply get individuals going, “Oh, I utterly get it, I perceive”.
And I believe it is as a result of I do not simply say, “No, I am writing a guide”, however I put a little bit of emotion into it as nicely, like I’m actually pleased with what we’re creating. And that, I believe, helps individuals to grasp why I am saying no. Or one other one which I’ve talked about earlier than is, I am a part of this neighborhood referred to as EY’s Successful Girls. And although the neighborhood continues after the yr that you just’re type of appointed one in all these Successful Girls, you continue to need to get essentially the most out of it through the yr. And so, I’ve stated no to some issues to say, “I am a part of a programme, there’s these dates which might be a part of it this yr that I actually need to attend as a result of it is a part of my yr’s commitments to try this”, and out of the blue individuals have extra understanding for it, and I am pleased with being a part of that neighborhood. So, I believe know what your priorities are, current them with pleasure when there is a scenario the place it’s good to say no, could be my concept for motion there.
Sarah Ellis: Additionally, what’s helpful about that I believe most likely notably for you is, when individuals know you nicely, they are going to be used to you as a “can do, make it occur, say it sure” particular person. So, for those who out of the blue simply began going, “Properly, no, I can not come to that, or I am struggling to find time for that”, in a type of colder approach, it would not really feel such as you. And I believe generally the explanation individuals wrestle with these is, okay, however I’ve nonetheless obtained to do it in my approach and with my phrases.
And I believe as you are describing these, and I believe as I used to be describing the yesses, we have each type of give you our personal method that truly most likely feels very private. It is like, nicely, that is the way you described it. I got here up with yesses in fairly a type of considerate and thought of and reflective approach, as a result of that is my character.
You have labored out, nicely, how will you say no, however with power, and in a approach that displays your feelings and type of nonetheless feels good for you? So, all people listening, you will have your personal approach. However I believe that’s price figuring out, you understand, the place’s your place to begin; after which what does this appear to be for you, so that you just nonetheless obtain the result, the saying no, saying do not know, saying sure, however with out shedding your self, as a result of that does not really feel good, nobody likes that sense of, “I am having to virtually faux to be somebody I am not to have the ability to do that nicely”. So, final, saying do not know, I reckon this could be a confidence gremlin for fairly lots of people listening, as a result of I hear individuals in our workshops share they do not like being placed on the spot. So, this isn’t about usually not figuring out, due to course there’s all the time a great deal of stuff that all of us do not know, that is saying you do not know very particularly. So, you possibly can be having a one-to-one along with your supervisor, you could be in a staff assembly, otherwise you would possibly even simply be getting a message on Groups or on Slack, and your response is you are considering, “Properly, I do not know, however how do I say I do not know?”
So, that is troublesome, and I believe it does take confidence and self-belief. And as Helen described in the beginning, your context will make a distinction. When you’re in a high-trust staff, I believe saying, “I do not know”, is far, a lot simpler than for those who’re in a low-trust staff the place you assume, “Properly, I am undecided what is going on to occur if I say I do not know”. So, only a type of slight caveat of, relying in your setting, you most likely will need to adapt your method a bit bit and be delicate to that scenario. Do not put your self in such a weak place that you will make your self really feel worse.
So, concept for motion one is, use your do not is aware of to ask for assist. And I believe typically the vulnerability of claiming you do not know is a chance for help, sounding boards, to get a steer from different individuals, or simply say, “I want some assist”, or to get a perspective. So, this would possibly sound a bit like, “I am undecided who to contain on this venture. Who would you suggest I discuss to so I can be taught extra?” So, you are saying, “I do not know”, “I do not know who to contain on this venture, however are you able to assist me with who that could be?” Otherwise you would possibly say, “In the mean time, I am not clear what success appears like for this piece of labor. What have you ever seen work nicely earlier than?” So once more, the one factor I used to be considering after I was writing these is I do not need to reverse the highlight, so, “I am placed on the spot; what I am now going to do is put you on the spot”, as a result of that feels a bit harsh! So, you are attempting to do that in a type of encouraging approach.
Helen Tupper: Deflect your do not is aware of!
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I used to be like, “Okay, we simply should be a bit cautious about that”. You may simply say, “I do not know the reply to that query, however I’ve obtained just a few ideas that I might recognize your perspective on”. That is one thing I’d undoubtedly say. So, you’ll be able to nonetheless have concepts and you’ll nonetheless have ideas, however I believe it’s okay to first acknowledge that you do not know the reply to a query. I’d all the time warning, I believe, ignoring the query and simply saying one thing totally different, or answering a unique query, as a result of I believe individuals can see via that and I believe that you may get caught out your self for those who attempt to try this.
Helen Tupper: I really feel that could be recommendation that some politicians miss, you understand after they get a query, they type of undergo it? We’ll go away politics to at least one facet; that is most likely not our podcast.
Sarah Ellis: And if someone says one thing the place you simply assume, you understand if it throws you and also you simply assume, “I do not know as a result of I’ve by no means had that thought earlier than”, and this has undoubtedly occurred to me, simply saying, “Oh, I hadn’t thought-about that, that sounds actually useful. How might you think about that working? Or have you ever seen that working someplace else?” Once more, you’re simply going, “I hadn’t thought-about that”.
And if someone has requested you a query round one thing the place you simply go, nicely, that is new data to you, that is only a new thought you could not have had, they’re most likely speaking about it as a result of they’ve seen it work nicely, or they’ve seen it of their groups. So, primarily, you simply want a bit bit extra context. I believe right here, what you are attempting to do is present a mix of curiosity, so that you’re type of going, “Properly, inform me extra”, primarily, and a little bit of vulnerability about going, “Okay, nicely I do not know, so are you able to assist me transfer from do not know to know? Are you able to help me as a part of that course of?” And I reckon the vast majority of persons are flattered by this, since you’re primarily asking for his or her recommendation. That is all we’re doing on this second goes, “Oh, Helen, I hadn’t even considered it that approach. How do you assume I’d work? “And Helen’s going, “Okay, so she’s ready to confess she’d not considered it, and he or she’s proven that she’s genuinely considering what I believe and what I’ve obtained to say”. I believe all of the individuals you need to work with would reply nicely to that. I believe since you’ve achieved the upfront acknowledgement, which I believe is necessary, you have not simply gone straight to, “Properly, you inform me”, as a result of that might really feel a bit overly aggressive.
Sarah Ellis: I believe Sarah’s do not know questions are a extremely, actually good purpose to obtain the PodSheet, as a result of I believe they’re actually useful. I do know so many individuals get fearful of asking for assist, however you have not talked about assist in any of these questions and it could result in the identical final result for individuals. So, undoubtedly, if you have not managed to jot down them down, don’t fret as a result of it is within the PodSheet. Concept for motion quantity two, while you need to say you do not know nevertheless it feels arduous possibly to do, is to reframe your language from figuring out to studying. So, this may sound like, as an instance Sarah’s asking me a query and I believe, “I need to say I do not know, however that feels too arduous to do”. As a substitute, a learning-based response would sound extra like, “Okay, that is actually attention-grabbing.
Properly, it is an space that I am studying extra about in the intervening time, so let me come again to you”. Or, “Okay, yeah, it’s an space the place I’ve type of obtained a bit extra to be taught, nevertheless it’s high of my precedence”, so simply not even getting that phrase “do not know”. If that feels too troublesome, simply get the phrase “no” out of your thoughts and reframe it to studying, and it is typically one thing that simply sounds extra energetic, you’ll be able to talk it in a really proactive approach, “I am actively studying about this in the intervening time, it is high of my studying record”, or no matter which may sound like for you, however you might need extra confidence and connection to the phrase “studying” than you do the phrase “figuring out”. I typically really feel like if I exploit the phrase figuring out, nicely I can by no means know sufficient, and I am by no means an professional sufficient in an space, and which may get in my approach. However simply saying, “Properly, I am studying about it, it is high of my studying record”, that simply feels simpler for me to do. And if it is simpler so that you can do, it’ll really feel, you understand in these conditions the place you get requested questions, it hopefully will simply make you only a bit extra assured about saying it.
Sarah Ellis: After which concept for motion three is transferring from do not know to knowns out loud. Now, I believe that is most likely an concept that works higher in a one-to-one setting fairly than in actually massive teams, as a result of in any other case it might most likely be a little bit of a free-for-all and maybe fairly troublesome to handle. However I do assume it’s okay, this could possibly be a peer-to-peer dialog, this could possibly be a dialog with someone in a unique staff who maybe has achieved one thing related, this could possibly be a dialog along with your supervisor. And also you’re having that dialog and so they’ve requested you a query the place you simply assume, “Yeah, I simply do not, I simply hadn’t thought of that”. Or what would typically run via my head is, “I simply do not know the place I might begin with it”.
You are type of going, “Oh, I do not even know what transferring from do not know to know appears likes. And I believe you’ll be able to well contain individuals in that technique of transferring from do not know to knowns. So, what you possibly can do at that time is say to someone, “I’ve not achieved this earlier than”, and I’ve labored for someone who used to say that to me fairly steadily, and I actually favored it. I by no means thought, “Oh, he should not know what he is doing”, I all the time simply thought, “Oh, okay, that is attention-grabbing, he is not achieved it earlier than”. After which he did this with me. He’d be like, “Oh, I’ve not achieved this earlier than. Lets work out collectively how we get began?” after which I might be actually flattered. I might be like, “Sure, let’s work out collectively how we get began”. And so primarily, then we have been collectively co-creating transferring from do not know to no less than some knowns.
However it was extra concerning the course of, like how are we going to maneuver to get into these knowns? So, who ought to we go to speak to; what do we all know primarily based on what we have achieved earlier than; what will we each simply assume; what are our preliminary both assumptions, or what are we imagining it would appear to be? I believe the explanation this finally ends up being so compelling is, generally different individuals do not know as a lot as you think about. So, generally you will be like, “Oh, okay, it isn’t like all people else has obtained the complete image or obtained all of this already discovered”. But in addition, doing a few of your transferring from do not know to knowns out loud, type of sharing that course of, I believe will get you a whole lot of buy-in since you’re bringing somebody with you. It’s totally basic “contain, do not resolve”. And really, this concept actually got here from working with Helen, who does the vast majority of her considering out loud. And I spent numerous time with Helen final week. And also you would possibly assume, “Certainly you all the time spend a whole lot of time with Helen?” however we truly do not.
Helen Tupper: She actively avoids me more often than not.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah! We did speak about assembly up once more, and also you have been like, “Was that too frequent for you?” You truly stated these phrases to me! And I used to be like, “Oh, gosh!”
Helen Tupper: It’s empathy.
Sarah Ellis: However I typically assume that is one thing I see you do. I believe that is generally the way you get from, you will be like, “Hmm, do not know”, and you then simply begin to have this sort of dialog. And I really feel it is not likely about constructing higher, we regularly speak about how will we construct higher collectively, it is simply constructing one thing. As a result of in the intervening time you are, that is about typically going from nothing, we simply do not know, to one thing, and I really feel such as you by no means go away a dialog with out having obtained to no less than one thing. As a result of normally by the top of that dialog, you cease listening to me and also you’re doing the actions, you are like proper, “Yeah, proper, I’ll go and discuss to that particular person, I’ll write this down”, and you’ve got gone from not figuring out to figuring out in a really brief area of time, however truly in a approach that creates a whole lot of readability, a whole lot of confidence, and a few momentum. So, we have been engaged on some issues from scratch final week the place there was quite a bit that you just and I did not know, and we have been like, “Properly, we do not know if this can work”.
And your factor goes, “Properly, how would we work out if it could work? What would we have to do?” and also you begin entering into that course of. So, I believe this most likely appears like a barely totally different method to do not is aware of, however you’re nonetheless saying it and you then’re involving somebody. I might virtually need to take into consideration, and I believe the explanation this works nicely with us is clearly we all know one another and work collectively nicely, who could possibly be that don’t-know companion for you? You recognize, somebody who fairly enjoys that technique of type of having a play and simply creating, and would not really feel daunted by do not know. Like, I do not assume you are daunted by do not know and I believe that basically helps. I believe generally I’d be extra daunted than you’ll be in that second.
I might be like, “Oh, there’s a lot we do not know”. You’d simply be like, “However what do we have to do?” since you’re such a doer. You are like, “It would not matter that we do not know. What issues is that we begin doing”, and it is a very type of learning-by-doing method.
Helen Tupper: I believe usually with this sort of sure, no and do not know, in addition to having like a don’t-know companion, I believe having a yes-no reverse is kind of helpful, you understand in your profession neighborhood, as a result of we simply caught collectively as these two opposites in fairly a useful approach. However I believe for those who might search for an reverse, someone who’s naturally good on the one that you just’re not, I believe you’ll be able to be taught an terrible lot from one another. I be taught quite a bit from how Sarah says no, and the way she says no in conferences, “Properly, no, I am undecided we must always try this” after which I will be like, “Oh, attention-grabbing, she’s courageous sufficient to try this after I most likely would not”. Or she’s even simply stopped to assume that we must always say no, as a result of she’s achieved that evaluation in her head and I’ve simply rushed into sure.
So, both observing or truly very deliberately partnering in a profession growth relationship with someone who’s your reverse I believe is a extremely efficient method to find out about this as nicely.
Sarah Ellis: So, all of the insights from at the moment’s episode are within the PodSheet, or if you’d like one thing even shorter, try the PodNotes, the place we have a tendency to simply have, say, the highest three concepts for motion or the issues that we predict are most helpful to share at a look. However we hope this has been helpful for saying sure, no, do not know.
Tell us the way you get on, and for those who ever have any concepts for podcast subjects that you just’d like us to speak about, you’ll be able to electronic mail us at any time. We’re helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com. However that is all the things for this week. Thanks a lot for listening and we’ll be again with you once more quickly. Bye for now.
Helen Tupper: Bye everybody.