00:00:00: Introduction
00:00:44: Introducing Katy Milkman
00:03:53: Suggestions for getting began
00:05:36: Utilizing a dedication machine
00:09:10: Temptation bundling
00:10:54: The intention-action hole
00:13:07: Katy’s profession recommendation
00:14:48: Closing ideas
Sarah Ellis: Hello, I am Sarah and that is the Squiggly Careers podcast. This episode is a part of our Videobook Membership sequence that we’re operating throughout January, and that is my skilled interview with Katy Milkman who’s going to be speaking all about change.
You’re in for an actual deal with. I actually loved my dialog with Katy. She’s good, insightful, she’s obtained actually good concepts for motion. It is actually sensible, I actually loved each watching the videobook, studying her ebook and speaking to her. I’m assured that that is undoubtedly going to be an excellent one for our Squiggly Careers neighborhood. So, take pleasure in listening and I will be again with you on the finish to let you realize what’s subsequent. Bye for now. So, Katy, welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast. I am actually trying ahead to speaking about tips on how to change.
Katy Milkman: Thanks for having me.
Sarah Ellis: So, we will dive straight in, and one of many issues that struck me very early on watching the videobook and studying the ebook, as a result of I’ve achieved each, was this concept of the ‘recent begin impact’, as a result of I’ve to say, I feel my preliminary view was possibly a bit cynical that truly, “Oh, have you learnt what? New 12 months is not an excellent time to set resolutions”, most likely primarily based alone private expertise. Perhaps you set them and then you definately fail and you’re feeling a bit disillusioned in your self. However the extra I’ve learn your work, I feel I is perhaps beginning to change my thoughts, possibly a bit extra nuanced than I used to be earlier than. What does this recent begin impact imply; after which, how may we apply that when it comes to moments the place we do need to make a change?
Katy Milkman: Yeah, properly, the recent begin impact is that this phenomenon the place there are moments in our lives, moments that really feel like new beginnings, once we are extra open to creating a change, we really feel just like the time is true for quite a lot of causes. One of many key causes from our analysis appears to be that folks at these new starting moments, like 1 January, like Mondays, like birthdays, we are able to say, “Okay, final 12 months or final week or after I was 23, now I am turning 24”, and say to ourselves, “That was the outdated me that did not get in form, or that wasn’t actually firing on all cylinders at work”, or no matter it was, that aim that has been in our thoughts for some time and we have not nailed it, we are able to put aside and say, “That was the outdated me, and the brand new me goes to be totally different”. That new starting provides you an opportunity to assume you’ve a clear slate and provides your self renewed optimism, and really feel a disconnect between what wasn’t working earlier than and what could possibly be a doable future.
So, it is kind of like a bit of a psychological immune system, if you’ll, that provides us a do-over or an opportunity for renewal. That implies that what we see in information set after information set is at moments that align with recent begin dates, there’s upticks in aim pursuit. Now, you started with the cynical take, and also you mentioned, “Perhaps I ought to set that apart, nevertheless it appears foolish”. I simply need to really say, I agree. It’s type of foolish, it is a unusual factor we do in our minds, it is not rational. 1 January will not be particular relative to 31 December, aside from the truth that we observe a calendar that occurs to demarcate time on this peculiar manner. And but, it seems to have which means for lots of people and be a useful gizmo for lots of people. If it provides you that sense of, “Okay, I’ve a clear slate, I can do it now”, and it will get you over the hump to start attempting, nice, no matter it takes, as a result of we do not obtain success if we do not attempt.
Sarah Ellis: And truly, what’s so fascinating, and also you level this out, is a lot of how our mind is wired works towards attempting to alter. However in some methods, what you’ve got simply described, you are like, “Oh, properly, that is really an upside”.
Even when it is a psychological factor, it would not matter whether or not 1 January, such as you say, might be the identical because the day earlier than, however really that is an excellent instance of the place the best way that we expect works for us, as a result of our brains love habits and we love patterns and we like doing the identical factor that we did earlier than. So, if someone is listening now, and really most likely lots of people will probably be listening in January, when individuals are on the very begin of that second, so they have the recent begin impact, they’re most likely in the precise time of 12 months, what would you advocate to folks as the very first thing they do to kind of begin to set them up for achievement, in order that I really feel like if you happen to begin properly, it possibly creates momentum?
Katy Milkman: That is proper. It does create momentum, and notably if we put in a burst of vitality once we are most motivated, it may assist construct habits, as a result of habits come from repetition and reward. And so, if you happen to attempt to repeat the behaviour that you simply’re attempting to placed on autopilot extra typically, identical to practising the piano makes you a greater pianist, practising a behavior makes it really feel extra automated as properly. So, what we too not often do is definitely assume upfront, “What are the obstacles that would journey me up? If this aim that I am attempting to pursue have been to fail, what could be the almost certainly causes for that?” There could also be issues which are outdoors of your skill to manage, however plenty of them could also be inner obstacles that could be obstacles to alter you possibly can plan higher to beat. So, one among them is simply getting began, discovering the second to start.
That is what we’re speaking about right here. The recent begin impact really knocks that impediment out of the best way for many people. However there are others too, like discovering it actually disagreeable to pursue your aim. For those who hate goal-pursuit within the second, that may be a motive you will not persist. Or it is perhaps that you do not actually really feel assured that you’ve got what it takes. For those who do not consider in your self, it is actually onerous to maintain making progress in the direction of a tough aim. Or possibly you do not have the social assist you want. And possibly you do not have the precise system for ensuring you do not neglect, or that you have not constructed the precise habits. And so, when you study what’s standing in your manner, really there’s an entire lot of scientific insights that may be very useful.
Sarah Ellis: One of many issues that you simply talked about, which I think is comparatively common, is that this letting go typically of current bias versus principally delayed gratification. And truly, one instance that sprung to thoughts, it is a bit totally different possibly to a few of the different adjustments that we would usually discuss, is clearly I hear lots of people speak to us in the meanwhile about wanting to alter their relationship with AI, nearly not being terrified of it, embracing it, utilizing it within the work that they do.
However as a result of it is expertise, we kind of anticipate within the current, as quickly as we begin utilizing it, it can simply resolve every part, like our work is out of the blue twice as quick, and we’re a lot extra environment friendly. As a result of that is a extremely good instance of one thing I need to change. I need to change how a lot I exploit AI within the work that I do. However I feel if I’ve a gift bias, I feel I’d surrender. I feel I’ve given up already a few occasions as a result of I have been like, “Oh, nevertheless it’s not solved every part actually rapidly”. When folks recognise that current bias, which all of us have, who would not like stuff working actually rapidly, what helps us to get on board with delayed gratification, given we have got to attend it out, basically?
Katy Milkman: Current bias, simply to outline this, I do know a lot of folks have watched the videobook or learn the ebook, however for anyone who wants a refresher, is the tendency to dramatically obese on the spot gratification, no matter is within the right here and now, the expertise I am having on this current second, over the long-term delayed rewards. And so, what which means is, “Yeah, I need to run a marathon, however which means I’ve to get off the sofa proper now, cease watching Netflix and run the 5K right now”. And we are able to see the identical type of downside arising with AI. Definitely, if you happen to’re pondering, “I wish to be extraordinarily expert at utilizing AI to, say, edit the memos I am sending. However proper now, I would reasonably simply shoot this memo off”, you possibly can think about that type of rigidity. And the following time you assume like, “Do I actually need to get suggestions on this memo from AI?” Yeah, it’d make it higher, however it is going to sluggish me down. And possibly you have not discovered how to do that effectively to make use of it within the crafting course of.
So, you retain kicking the can and say, “Effectively, subsequent time, I will determine tips on how to use it”. There are a few options for when current bias will get in our manner. After we are present-biased, it may lead us to procrastinate. So, procrastination is the flipside of current bias. Top-of-the-line options for current bias is definitely a really heavy-handed answer known as ‘a dedication machine’. A dedication machine is a instrument that actually constrains us. It both adjustments our incentives or creates bans or restrictions. We’re very used to different folks doing this to us, proper? You are used to having a boss who says, “It’s a must to use AI no less than as soon as earlier than you submit any prototype”, or the state saying, “It’s a must to observe the pace restrict or else you will get a ticket”. And the dedication machine is a weird instrument the place we use the identical perception to constrain ourselves. You possibly can think about making a positive that you simply impose on your self. Like, “As soon as a day I have to attempt to determine a manner to make use of, say, ChatGPT to boost my work, and if I do not, if I do not log in and use it for no less than one use case per 30 days, I will positive myself. I will put $50 on the road per week that I must ship to a charitable organisation I hate, say one on the alternative finish of the political spectrum for me. It’s good to have somebody who’s going to carry you accountable for that, some kind of referee, possibly GPT really has customers to only —
Sarah Ellis: Does it for you, yeah!
Katy Milkman: — that you possibly can, yeah, that you possibly can like snapshot and report on; possibly it is someone you’re employed with who might agree to carry you accountable. You ship them an electronic mail day by day if you use GPT.
Sarah Ellis: You additionally speak concerning the significance of enjoyable and gamification. So, what recommendation would you give to folks if individuals are attempting to work out for themselves, “I’ve obtained a change I need to make, how do I make it enjoyable, or how do I gamify one thing that usually would not really feel that enjoyable, you realize, doing extra train, consuming much less chocolate, consuming much less, no matter it is perhaps?”
Katy Milkman: One in all my favorite areas of analysis that I have been concerned within the final 20 years is analysis on a particular tactic for this that I name ‘temptation bundling’, which is if you solely permit your self to take pleasure in some temptation, say, you possibly can solely binge-watch your favorite present on no matter your most popular vendor is, you possibly can solely binge-watch that present, you realize, Bridgerton, if you are pursuing your aim, like exercising. Now, this isn’t going to work for ChatGPT, or for LLMs usually, proper? You are not going to have the ability to solely permit your self to binge-watch Bridgerton whereas utilizing LLM; these issues battle! So, it must be a complimentary exercise, proper? So, you possibly can see it with the fitness center, “If I work out, I am solely allowed to, say, binge-watch my favorite present whereas I am understanding”.
Now I will crave journeys to the fitness center to seek out out what occurs to my favorite characters. Time’s going to fly whereas I am there. It is perhaps that you simply make it social. So, possibly you’ve a good friend at work who has the identical aim and also you verify in on one another, and possibly even attempt to determine tips on how to use the instruments collectively. That could possibly be one technique to make one thing extra enjoyable. After we coach different folks, once we mentor different folks, it really helps us enhance our personal efficiency on the very dimension we’re teaching them on. After we say to another person, “You must do that factor”, there’s one thing known as the ‘saying is believing’ impact. When you say it to another person, you consider it extra, and you are going to really feel like a hypocrite if you happen to do not observe your personal recommendation.
Sarah Ellis: We have all obtained these intentions, however typically there’s a hole between intention and motion. And I favored a few of the concepts that you simply discuss round not simply having reminders, however ensuring that these reminders for the change you need to make are each well timed and, ideally, uncommon. And truly, it is the bizarre bit that type of actually caught with me, and the alien instance, which for individuals who have watched the videobook, you should have seen slightly alien. Oh, you’ve got obtained him!
Katy Milkman: He sits with me to remind me of that venture.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. What you have been describing is the bizarre helps us to note, it captures our consideration. And in a world the place we’re simply distracted and there’s a lot happening, you have to do one thing that creates cut-through. Folks listening now, they have their change in thoughts, they’ve understood the recent begin results, they are going to consider tips on how to hold that dedication and temptation bundling, and possibly tips on how to do it with different folks. What’s this closing piece right here, which is round that reminder that all of us want, as a result of we’re forgetful, so we do not need to depend on our brains?
Katy Milkman: We’d like reminders to be jarring and we’d like them to be well timed, proper? If CVS texts me to come back and decide up my prescription on the pharmacy, however I am at work and I am not going to be strolling dwelling for a number of hours, really that reminder would not assist me a lot, as a result of by the point I am strolling dwelling, I’ve already forgotten it. So, we should be considerate about once we’re supporting others and ourselves. How will we guarantee that we are able to convert our intentions to actions by making certain that we now have actually detailed motion plans with reminders and cues that can seize our consideration within the second we have to take motion?
So, that is kind of, if it is advisable to decide one thing up on the best way dwelling from work and you reside by your calendar, then you definately’d higher have the calendar reminder at, you realize, precisely 5.00pm telling you to try this factor. Do not simply assume you will bear in mind. There could also be folks in your life who may also be supportive of this.
We have to break down our intentions into bite-sized items and take into consideration, “When will I do it, the place will I do it, how will I get it achieved? Take into consideration that stage of planning element and recognise you want it, or else you will not observe by way of. But it surely must be kind of positioned in calendar. , if you wish to work out, that must be in your calendar; if you wish to get a flu shot, that must be in your calendar; if you wish to vote, that must be in your calendar. Do not assume that you’ll simply determine a technique to get it achieved as a result of it is essential to you.
Sarah Ellis: We ask all of our specialists who we invite on the podcast the identical query, simply to complete our dialog, which is, what’s the most effective piece of profession recommendation that both you’ve got had, or that you’d identical to to move on to our listeners that you simply assume folks will discover actually useful?
Katy Milkman: The recommendation I used to be given was to not be strategic about selecting my tasks to give you some optimum portfolio, however really to pursue tasks I cherished, pursue analysis tasks that I wakened within the morning intrinsically motivated to pursue. If you’re doing a factor that you simply take pleasure in doing, you’ll persist longer. And in the end, in my line of labor and in so many, it is about seeing your tasks by way of to the end line and doing them to the most effective of your skill, that many individuals fail on.
And if you happen to’re selecting issues that you simply love, you’ll succeed as a result of you’ll push them since you’re intrinsically motivated. And every day, we get up eager to do it, and that can result in the most effective general outcomes. It isn’t that we should never be strategic in taking up tasks or doing work that is good for our profession, that actually has its place, however I feel it is a actually refreshing and, for me, has been very precious, is that if you happen to’re not passionate concerning the work you are doing, you are not going to provide it your all and you are not going to have the nice outcomes that result in development. So, you might be strategic all day, however if you happen to’re strategically doing issues that you simply hate, you’ll not succeed. Do what you’re keen on when you’ve the chance and good outcomes will observe.
Sarah Ellis: Katy, thanks a lot for speaking to me. It actually made me mirror alone adjustments. I am undoubtedly going to go away and take a few of the actions that I’ve mirrored on from studying your ebook and watching you in motion too. So, thanks a lot.
Katy Milkman: Thanks for having me and, yeah, wishing you a beautiful vacation season and to everybody watching, Blissful New 12 months and wishing you a lot of success together with your targets in 2025.
Sarah Ellis: Thanks for listening to the podcast right now with Katy. I hope you loved it and located it as helpful as I did. It is actually price spending a while with Katy’s work, so if you have not had time to observe one of many videobooks but, Katy’s is a extremely good one to start out with. I feel it is simple to make the transition from the analysis that she’s achieved, to how we would apply that within the work that we do, and the way all of us work collectively.
And I feel we’re all attempting to alter ultimately, whether or not that is a private change that you simply need to make, whether or not that is small adjustments you make to methods of working, or whether or not that is huge adjustments that your organisation are making. I feel it is such a related subject for all of us. So, I hope you loved listening and see you once more quickly. Bye for now.